March 22 - 31 2009 mailing list messages

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From: geoff hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Was it my B O ?
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 15:10

For all those who didn't go − you missed a very good one indeed. ( London
Orchid Show).

More later, but I'm just home, and have a lot of unpacking to do − the
orchids I ordered from South America etc − with a little ingenuity the
tardiness of the RHS can be circumvented ( just find the nursery , e.g. on
OrchidMall site, e-mail saying are you coming to London , can you bring
me... or have you got.... and bingo..

But in any case, the list was here, sufficiently early for orders to be
possible.

From: cyril . whalley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Chippings
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 19:55

A few weeks ago I repotted a Dendrobium Fire Coral into Rocky's granite chippings. I used a transparent pot, and after about two weeks it was good to see the root tips turn green and start to ramble, now there is a new shoot coming. It seems to need more water than bark compost, you can watch the moisture line receding down the pot! Thanks for your tips all of you .

From: geoff hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Was it my B O ?
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 20:35

I also went to Wisley − on the way home. They have an orchid event. In
previous years it has been criticised , but this year it is first class. If
you can get to Wisley before the end of this month do.

They have put orchids in the new glasshouse range − lots and lots of them.
Great banks of this and that. Artistically done too. Of course you are not
going to see unusual species or great rareities , but you will see big old
specimen plants of e.g. Laelia .anceps − with a dozen spikes ; old Dendrobe
hybrids, Montrose and Gatton Monarch I could name and others I have
forgotten , with canes a couple of feet long and thicker than my thumb, and
flowers to match. Big banks of same grex cymbidiums, etc etc. The slightly
less usual stuff, where there are one offs., are put together as a big
bench. Otherwise, the orchids are scattered among the other plants in the
greenhouses − if you haven't seen the new glasshouse range, its worth a
visit for that too.

As to London, (the show) I didn't see it all ; by the time I had collected
my pre-orders from several places, and had long chats with a few old
friends, even with two visits, I was wilting and in need of a rest and
change of scene.

I find it interesting how my ideas have changed ; this time when I came home
and got everything on the bench, I found all species with just one exception
- a Tolumnia hybrid ; nothing in flower − except the Tolumnia hybrid. Time
was I would come home and put on a flower show in the hall , all hybrids.
Not nowadays.

> For all those who didn't go − you missed a very good one indeed. ( London
> Orchid Show).

From: Tricia Garner
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Chippings, and a question for Rocky
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 08:50

Rocky, the message from Cyrus prompts me to ask (you have probably
said, but I can't remember) if you use chippings for your phals. I
have successfully transferred most of my Cattleyas to chippings in
clay pots and was wondering about trying the odd phal in them.

From: francis quesada pallares
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Chippings, and a question for Rocky
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 12:35

Although I don't use Rocky's chipping compost, I do have a phally on marble chips... I used this because two years it produced a massive spike and was very top heavy. The phally being at school (work), needing repotting, and I being a science teacher, decided to give the marble chips a go. It did well last year, although the spike was no where near as big as before, and the flowers didn't last more than 4 weeks (although that might be because I moved it to another room when it was fully opened and the change might have caused the flowers to last only for a short time). Other than that, the plant looks healthy and is in no danger of being toppled by accident!

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: 'Stone/Granite chippings'
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 16:15

Especially..... It seems to need more water than bark compost. Let me just say this. I have enjoyed looking at orchid roots through a home microscope, and also very much enjoyed looking at roots of orchids that are attached to bare trunks of trees. This leads me on to say that I only water to fill the orchids roots.....the stone/granite 'medium' does not come into it. But if a bark, and/or bark with other water retentive composts is used, then of course it is a different matter.

All of my epiphytes are grown this way, and during the growing season [just started] I always have the clay pots stood in plastic saucers. And this is how I give water/feed to the roots. I use a pump sprayer filled with rain water/feed. I spray over the top of the medium for about fifteen to twenty seconds. Maybe ten seconds for the smaller pots. After I have completed this job, I can normally see some liquid in the plastic trays. I then have a look and most probably do it again in a day or so.....depends on the weather. If during the Summer it is very hot, I use a small plastic watering can to do the job, leaving the trays almost full up. You soon get used to how much to give the plant. And of course some of them drink like crazy, while others do not need so much. Summing up I will say that just because my plants are in granite chippings, they do not need as some people think, to be watered more often.

Well Tricia, the answer is that all of my Phallys [except recent buys] are in clay pots with granite chippings, and those recent buys will be re-potted in the next few days. Phallys do so well, especially as their roots grow long and fast, and are soon poking out through the holes and curling around the bottom of the pot inside of the plastic saucer.

From: Tricia Garner
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Chippings, and a question for Rocky
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 16:25

Thanks, Francis. Clearly caution is needed! I wait to read Rocky's
response also.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Marble chipps.
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 18:40

Aha!!! So you are a Science Teacher.....you and I could talk for hours and hours about Science.

But back to your Marble chips. Can you please tell me what their shape is and any other information that you think might interest me.

At the moment I have a few orchids potted in different types of medium. This is an ever ongoing experiment just to satisfy my curiosity.

I cannot think that putting your Phalaenopsis in Marble chips was anything to do with the smaller spike and longevity of the flowers.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Potting in granite chips.
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 18:50

You said: Clearly caution is needed! And I say YES, it is, because when you de-pot your Phalaenopsis, make sure that you remove all of the old compost. Maybe wash the roots and rhizome in some tepid water. Make sure that all the bark is removed. Then, if there are any dead roots then cut them off right up against the rhizome. And if any roots have dead or almost dead parts at their ends cut those away.....into the good part of the root.

When re-potting, if the plant has some very long roots, then, as you lower the plant into the pot, just twist it and as you twist the plant, lower it to the correct position. It sure mikes life a lot easier.

A read a book last week that said if there are long roots hanging out over the pot, cut them off. Why butcher something that Mother Nature fashioned. What an idiot. It is like going to Hospital with an ear problem and they decide they might as well cut your leg off.

I am sure you will be delighted with your plant, especially that you will not be sitting down thinking that the compost might turn sour and all of the other problems that could come up with a bark/peat type compost.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: The London Show.
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 19:05

I went to the show on the Saturday. A very nice show indeed. Very colourful. Very well laid out.

At the top of the stairs, the Botanical Artists had their wares on show.....wow, some of them were fantastic. The hours they must take to produce such a wonderful painting or sketch.

I was particularly impressed by the fact that there was just about everything that anyone would need right in front of their eyes.

Also, the range of plants was better than last year. Particularly noticeable was the fact that many of the plants for sale had many flower spikes. Good value for the punters.

I spoke to quite a few of the 'Overseas' Nurseries, and all of them said that the R.H.S. have their heads in the sand. And as Geoff has said, we should by-pass then and just look at the Nurseries Web sites to find out who is coming to the show. Perhaps, and I feel sure that we will, all of us will tell each other who is coming when we do find out.

The other item that made me smile was a story told to me by an 'Overseas' Nursery. This Nursery imported a good number of plants into their Country..........someone or some government body confiscated the plants..........although all the paperwork was in order..........plants were kept somewhere while the Judge and whoever argued this way and that..........this of course went on for a year or so..........did somebody yawn? Then eventually the plants were cleared. So, how many plants arrived at the Nursery, yes you guessed it..........just a handful..........all the others died.

This of course brings me on to one other item that I did laugh about inwardly. I was standing looking at some plants that were brought over from Colombia and Venezuela respectively. And I thought of the previous story which I have just told you about..........C.I.T.E.S...........what a joke!!!!!

From: John J. Rupp
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Chippings
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 20:05

I tried the rock as a potting medium last fall and have mixed results.
6 Phals − 1 still alive and doing well
Onc Gower Ramsay − dead
Onc Sharry Baby − alive, but not doing well
Dendrobium Anne Marie − looking OK, but has not had any new growth
Paphiopedilum Vanda M. Pearman (delenatii x bellatulum "alba") − in
Rocky's Paph mix is alive and improving

These stats above look rather bleak, but I must be honest that most of
the plants, 5 Phals, Onc Gower Ramsay, and the Paph were doing very
poorly, needed repotting, and I didn't expect them to survive. So, I
thought what could I lose, let's try the rocks. The one surviving Phal
in rocks was doing well before the rocks and still is. The Sharry Baby
is definitely worse than it was before repotting into rocks. It has new
growths coming and I will be watching them carefully to see how they do.

From: geoff hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Chippings
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 08:10

This is the problem , when talking about trying a new compost − most of us
do it with plants which are already suffering. It's not a fair test I think.
Best to try a new compost out on a good plant which is doing well .

But then the combination of plant/new compost/your technique − may be a bad
one, and the plant dies.

The only solution , the sensible solution, is if you are getting good
results with one compost etc, then don't change.

Of course, you should do as I say, not as I do − I'm just as much a sucker
as anyone else.

> ...I must be honest that most of the
> plants, 5 Phals, Onc Gower Ramsay, and the Paph were doing very poorly,
> needed repotting, and I didn't expect them to survive. So, I thought what
> could I lose, let's try the rocks...

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Granite chips.
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 08:10

John, thank you for your input, especially the information on the Phallys. I am sure that the one that is O.K. will give you great satisfaction.

Can't understand why the Oncidium is not doing so well, but maybe you can tell me more about it.....the before and after sequence.

One thing for sure, when epiphytic orchids are planted in a stone medium, there will NEVER be any decomposing, rotting or compost turning acid or sour.

From: Laura Peppiatt
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Chippings
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 10:05

I have tried Rocky's compost only on one plant Angraecum Leonis. It was
mounted on a small piece of birch(?) back and I surrounded it with
chippings in a shallow pot about a year ago. It has not flowered but
grew two new growths. It is not thriving but in my extreme conditions
none of my orchids does ( my growing area is above radiator, I have
steam humidifier but it does not help much, humidity is about 40% ). I
do believe that Rocky's compost will work very well in a greenhouse. I
will certainly try it when I get one (after crunch?)

As we are talking about compost I have bought Orchids Focus compost
recently and re-potted a few of my orchids. The compost includes bark
and coco chips. After a month all plants look better than before. If
anyone has tried this compost before? I remember discussion that coco
chips may have salts and kill orchids. I soaked the compost in rain
water and checked ppm. It did not change. I assume that Growth
Technology use good coco chips?

From: Tony Garthwaite
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] The London Show.
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 11:05

Ah! ...... That is how I missed you Roger!
I went to the show on Sunday...............like many frustrated orchid growers, I was at the Kent Alpine Garden Show on Saturday!

It is only the second time my wife and I have been to the RHS Show and I did make the comment that is was better than last year, so I was pleased to see the comments from you and Geoff extolling the quality of this year's Show.

Of course we left with lighter wallets than we entered with, but one plant which I bought from our friends Akerne has been giving problems since getting it back to Lincolnshire: Coelogyne flaccida.

Sons and wife have been complaining of a "funny smell, rather like over-heating bakelite". Guess which flowers are giving off this 'perfume'!!

Anyway, they look good and the show was enjoyed, so what is a 'suspect small electrical problem' against a great hobby?

I refuse to comment on C.I.T.E.S. ............ I've been 'gagged' because of my comments about the Food Standards Agency being a load of amateurs, so I'll refrain from commenting on another branch of DEFRA !

> I went to the show on the Saturday. A very nice show indeed. Very
> colourful. Very well laid out.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Fred's page 1, Fred's page 2
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 16:25

After reading what John-J said about his Oncidium, I thought that I would let you all read something that I posted some months ago.

I firmly believe what Fred has told us all. In fact, I am sure that finer rooted orchids do like a much closer knit medium, especially as his pea gravel/shingle stays so clean and does not hold any water.

All of my Odonts and Oncids are normally potted in pea shingle, but I have a few to repot this year.....taking them out of 'Nursery type mediums'.

From: geoff hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Chippings
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 19:10

When coconut fibre first appeared, it was from coconuts which had been
collected from beaches , and was heavily impregnated with salt . That had to
be soaked with two or three changes of water to get the EC down to a safe
level.

But what is being used in the Focus mix , and also stuff offered by Ray
Creek for example, is quite different. The Focus mix is actually made up for
them by a big firm in Holland who supply the "orchid factories" who produce
all these splendid flowering plants which we see in supermarkets, orchid
shows etc , and they grow them to perfection in a very short time by having
the best of everything − including the compost .

I speak with some knowledge since I have been advising the Orchid Focus
makers for several years, and actually designed the compost . ( They used to
put my name on every bag , and stopped after discussion about giving me a
fee for every time they used my name − but since I do very well from them
when I ask for supplies of nutrients, additives etc − not to mention the
large pallet load of 100 litre bags of every conceivable compost ingredient
which I had when I was experimenting with composts for them − I'm still
using some of that material , I don't grumble ).

Now as to chippings, I don't want to knock Roger (Rocky) or his methods, but
stone varies all over the country. If you buy pea gravel in Gloucestershire
it will be oolitic limestone. In Shrewsbury it seems to be granite . Down in
Hampshire it is more like flint − and the chemical composition is different
for all three − especially as to pH , and where there is any soluble
material also as to EC. You will also note what Roger says about his
watering method and his pots. Using a clay pot will lead to a different root
temperature as compared to a plastic one. Do you need cool roots ?
Personally I go to some lengths to keep the roots warmer than the leaves
where I can, e.g. on my seedlings bench. ( per Bob Gordon − treat orchid
seedlings like human babies − warm bum, cool head...)

If you want to water your collection once a week, then chippings will not be
for you − but Perlite may be , if you use plant saucers, and that is a stone
equivalent ( Perlite is made from sand − i.e. degraded stone )

Personally my many hundred, probably few thousand orchids certainly could
not be given individual attention every day ! It is also my certain belief
that there is not one single compost which will grow any and every orchid to
perfection − which is the standard I aim at, and occasionally achieve − and
I do that by using perhaps as many as six different composts , but even then
I vary them to suit my plants , and what they are "telling me" when I handle
them − and I do try to handle every plant every week.

> ...As we are talking about compost I have bought Orchids Focus
> compost recently and re-potted a few of my orchids. The compost
> includes bark and coco chips. After a month all plants look better
> than before. If anyone has tried this compost before? I remember
> discussion that coco chips may have salts and kill orchids. I
> soaked the compost in rain water and checked ppm. It did not
> change. I assume that Growth Technology use good coco chips?...

From: geoff hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: perishin' shade cloth...
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 19:20

We have had 10 days of wall-to- wall sunshine here on the south coast. Not
hot (yet, if ever ! ) although we have seen mid teens − 15, 16 even 17 one
day in my garden.

But in my greenhouse the temperature has been soaring despite swamp coolers
and fans. Doing some routine watering this morning I found a patch of
scorch on a leaf, and my vandas look a bit sunburnt . Time for shade cloth.

When I got it out of the garage and started to put it up , it broke up in my
hands. It is so fragile that obviously it wouldn't last five minutes -
especially as gales in the Channel are forecast . I've never seen this
before − it's the usual 50% dark green shade cloth ,1.5m wide − but I guess
I have had it for a few years, maybe even 10 or more. It certainly was not
like this when I put it away last autumn. I suppose UV etc is responsible,
but not in my garage. A bit of a mystery .

Fortunately I have a spare complete set of cloths − they are about 7metre
lengths which I throw over the greenhouse from one eaves to the other ( on
the outside) − and at one time − just for one year − I experimented using
two layers , and this spare set is only perhaps 5 or 6 years old, and looks
perfectly OK.

And on this subject,. When at Wisley on Sunday I visited the alpine houses
as I always do, and they have some very posh smart shade blinds, made of the
aluminium foil strip on mesh stuff, with neatly reinforced edges and bolted
to the metal frame greenhouse ( on the vertical faces) and as roller blinds
on the roof. I like them. Has anyone ever seen them offered for sale ? I
guess I can ask the Superintendant if no one has any ideas.

From: francis quesada pallares
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Marble chipps.
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 07:45

The chippings are about about an inch to an inch and a half in size, and being chips, they are kind or pebble like, but not rounded, if that makes any sense?

I don't think that the chips made any difference to the length of the spike or the duration of the flowers either. I rather think that the size of the spike would probably be due to the orchid being in a different compost and having to adapt the roots to that (the old ones aren't looking great, but the new ones are looking good), and the duration of the flowers to the fact that it was moved to a different room (the headmistress office), with different conditions and definitely a very different watering regime!

PS. I was also at the London orchid show, helping on Laurence Hobbs stand all three days. It was nice that both Friday and Sunday were a little more relaxed than the previous year, specially for people to walk around... I am not so sure it was that good for business, though!

From: francis quesada pallares
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Coelogyne id?
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 07:50

I bought a Coelogyne cristata var. alba last year at my local orchid auctio
n. I do not usually grow Coelogynes, as my conditions are not right. Anyway
, I got it because no one else bidded on it (I wanted people to get going,
so I put the first bid for UKP1 and I got it!). The thing is, from the star
t, I didn't think the bulbs looked right. It has now flowered, and looking
at the flowers, it does look like the flowers in all of my books, but looki
ng at the keels on the lip I got confused.

The Encyclopedia of orchids says that cristata has 5 keels on the lip. My f
lowers only have two. And so do all the flowers on the books that I have ha
d a look at....

From: Lynda Coles
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] perishin' shade cloth...
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 10:50

A company called LBS horticulture sells something like this (Phormiflex).....I first saw something like it in use on the continent. Unlike green shadecloth it is designed as a thermal shading, to keep temperatures in the house down by reflecting heat energy out, reduce condensation and yet maintain night temperatures and, to a degree, humidity it is available as 40%-68% shade properties I think. I can give your contact details for LBS if you need it. Alternatively try this link to Bonar technical fabrics. I have some info about the various types somewhere...I will try and find it when I have a minute...I might still have it (wouldn't recommend holding the breath though !)

http://www.edgb2b.co.uk/Bonar_Technical_Fabrics_Groupe_LOW_BONAR-1010-noprofil-2006982-4644-0-1-1-fr-societe.html

From: Paul Johnson
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Coelogyne id?
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 12:45

Coelogyne cristata var. hololeuca [ the variety `alba' is a synonym]
can have only two distinctive keels, though in this condition there is
usually a smaller midline keel, too. As with most species, variation
can be extensive.

From: Laura Peppiatt
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Chippings
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 14:40

Thank you very much for your detailed and very useful information. I
hope this compost will work for me.I use Orchid Focus (growth) feed as
well. I used to feed too much I think (I had black tips on the leafs) .
Then I bought a TDS meter and now try not to exceed 300ppm. Now I am
not sure that it is enough. New leafs and flowers are smaller.

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Marble chipps.
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 16:55

How about showing me a photo of your Phalaenopsis in its pot with the marble
chips please.

From: Dennis Read
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Coelogyne id?
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 19:55

Francis, I am sure Paul will advise on the correct keel number but
mine has two and a half.
Books vary -Hawkes says five and Bechtel,C & L says three. From my
experiebce the bulbs on C. cristata 'Alba' are smaller and on a
longer rhyzome. I keep my 'Alba' wet at all times − in fact it sits
in a tray of water as well as watered each day.
At Burnhams they have the finest show of Coelogyne I have ever seen
on show at the moment.
Regards

From: geoff hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Chippings
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 20:55

TDS meters do not actually count the parts per million... that is an
impossibility with any known technology. What they actually do is meaure EC
( electrical conductivity , and then work backwards , but end up multiplying
the microSiemens reading by a constant. Unfortunately there is no
universal agreement as to the constant !

The Hannah meter I have uses 1.6 as the constant, other Hannah's use 1.4. I
believe that for the dairy industry 1.2 (?) is the standard , whereas the
sewage people use 1.9(?).... In short, your meter and mine should give
identical EC and pH figures, but quite different TDS figures. That is why I
don't use them.

However, to make sure I have not got it backwards, I just dipped my meter in
tapwater here, and without waiting for the temperature adjustment to settle
in , the EC was 444 and the ppm was 222. So − approximately doubling it -
you are trying not to exceed 600 EC. That − in my opinion − is far too high.
I use 300 EC in the winter, and even then get some leaf tip blackening
especially on plicate leaves, and tose I water with pure rain water most of
the time ( to prevent this).

I have been experimenting with water, and taking readings in the jungle
during rainstorms etc for many years − so I may be able to answer
questions....

From: francis quesada pallares
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Coelogyne id?
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 08:35

The picture sent by Paul looks great, and it does look like my flowers too, so I guess the label should be right.

I am still unsure as to the size of the bulbs, but the plant is at home, and I am at work now. Will measure them and send some more info some other time.

From: Laura Peppiatt
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Chippings
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:55

It seems I should decrease concentration. Sometime I add seaweed plant
stimulant. Do you think it is useful?

From: geoff hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Chippings
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 06:10

I like to use a cocktail made up of several ingredients − a general balanced
fertiliser, calcium nitrate, and then something rich in trace elements such
as your seaweed − but don't forget it is all adding to the total reading ;
so (say) 150 − 200 ppm total including all of those things . Lower figures
in shorter days (winter), higher in longer (summer).

From: Laura Peppiatt
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Chippings
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 16:55

Geoff,
I think you forgot physan. You mentioned it a few times before, I think.
thank you. I shell try calcium nitrate.
Regards,
Laura

From: geoff hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Chippings
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 20:35

True it does raise the EC a little, but if you use at say 1:1000 ( a
teaspoon in a gallon ) the raise is very small.

> I think you forgot physan. You mentioned it a few times before, I think.
> Thank you. I shell try calcium nitrate.

From: John W Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Marble chipps.
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 01:30

I haven't kept up with the group for a while (this retirement lark is a full
time job I find and we are into conservatory building just now)

Notwithstanding points raised in emails I've missed, it occurs to me as
another science 'teacher' there may be a few aspects that have been missed
in connection with these chippiongs.

First; marble is technically altered limestone. This essentially means
recrystallised. However, many commercial 'marbles' are simply varieties of
limestone useable for sculpture and building facings. However, both marbles
and the limestones from which they are derived are carbonate rock. The
carbonate may be calcium carbonate, magnesium carbonate and sometimes
proportions of iron carbonate.

I think I am correct in suggesting that the calcium and magnesium carbonates
might have some value in orchid growing assuming that the carbonate can find
its way into the orchid.

Limestones, and to some extent marbles, can have one of a variety of
textures. To take extremes, the famous Cotstwold oolitic limestones are of
open porous texture wheras a true marble like the aitslian Carrara Marble
famous for sculpture is virtually non porous (although beds of it may be
permiable) In between are many variations between open structured limestones
and true marbles.

If fargments are of angular shapes they will have a larger surface area
relative to their volume than ovoid or round pebbles. If pebbles are
polished they will yield significantly different quantities of carbonate in
solution (less) than roughly textured surfaced ones (again because of
surface area but also by causing water to run off more or less quickly)

I often used to make this point by referring to the speed with which sugar
dissolves in coffee; castor − v.rapidly (large surface area) compared with
the same weight of that trendy chunky brown stuff with pea-sized crystals
(the coffee's gone cold before it dissolves!)

Some orchids naturally grow on limestone and others are fond of carbonate.
Even though orchid 'compost' is often better described as a supporting
medium, (it isn't usually a compost of the kind used for terrestrial plants)
water running through carbonate chipping might collect sufficient to excite
the orchids bathing their roots in it.

In my own 'umble opinion, I would have thought that hard water (hard with
carbonate) would be an esier way of sdministering carbonate to an orchid if
that is required (unless it happens to be of a king which will hold fast to
a slab of limestone, perhaps)

Could a any of this verbiage be of any help to all you chippers? At least,
it might help for those bent on experimenting. A hard water would be easier
to quantify and control to see if carbonate is the answer to your particular
plant's needs.

Best wishes to all of you who might have been thinking (hoping?) that I am
no longer above ground!

From: John W Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Chippings
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 01:55

May I jump in?
Hi Laura,
Just noticed Geoff's reply to your Freudian slipping on chippings!
I suppose the substitution of "shell" for "shall" isn't strictly a Freudian slip so much as a dyslexion selection, but it does serve to remind us that shells might well be a useful substitute for lime-rich chippings (wash off the sea salt)..

Some shells are calcium carbone others, (many mollusc 'clam' shells) are magnesium-calcium carbonate

As for Freudian slips: for years I directed adult students to my geology classes in Market Drayton in Shropshire. I used to tell them to look for a cafe called "The Peasant Girl" near the class venue. Years later, stuck in a traffic jam outside the said cafe, I noticed that it was actually called "The Pheasant Grill". Nobody had corrected me and I still think my title was far better! (but it was probably a sign that I was ready for retirement!)

> Geoff,
> I think you forgot physan. You mentioned it a few times before, I think.
> thank you. I shell try calcium nitrate.

From: "Gowland, Georgina"
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Orchid in a hanging basket
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 07:55

I'm new to orchids and this list. I was given my first orchid last October
and then another at Christmas. I now have seven − mostly Phalaenopsis but
one Miltonia and another that doesn't look like the other two but as yet I
haven't identified. It might be a Cymbidium but this was one of the gifts
minus a label!

I do not have a lot of space in my home to grow orchids on my windowsills
but I wondered if it were possible to grow them in hanging baskets allowing
the blooms to hang down rather than being staked upright. Could you do this
with a small bloomed Phalaenopsis?

From: geoff hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Orchid in a hanging basket
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 10:05

> ...I do not have a lot of space in my home to grow orchids on my windowsills
> but I wondered if it were possible to grow them in hanging baskets allowing
> the blooms to hang down rather than being staked upright. Could you do this
> with a small bloomed Phalaenopsis?

From: geoff hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Marble chipps.
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 10:10

Not for a moment John; I'll leave you to decide which of your remarks that
applies to... ( my sense of humour[?] is working overtime this morning).

Re orchids growing on limestone − which is often said of Paphs. I always
imagined a Cotswold type landscape , except a bit more tropical than
Chipping Campden ; however, when I found P.bellatulum on limestone I didn't
recognise it as what it was − Karst − which I think is much like marble.

However, calcium, magnesium and indeed iron are all needed by every green
plant ... calcium makes cell walls apart from anything else ; magnesium is
the centre atom in chlorophyll , and iron is the starting point for the
enzyme needed to start the chlorophyll assembly job. ( Amazing similarities
between the biochemistry here, and that involved in haemoglobin − the red
cells in blood − well, amazing to me with my simple mind).

From: Dennis Read
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Cattleya intermedia
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 16:35

O.K. in its self it is not an unusual species but I have shut down my warm house since last september and all my warm (15C min) had to take their chance in the intermediate (12C min). They were doing well until a power outage in January when the temperature went down to 7C all night. Most but not all Phalaenopsis are now compost and most BGB Cattleya Hybrids also went but species seem to survive.
Come June I will let you know what eventually survived.
Regards from a bitterly cold North Devon. Dennis

From: PG Hieke
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Orchid in a hanging basket
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 18:10

Hi Georgina,
Welcome to the club.
Does the attached picture answer your question?

From: David Martin
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Orchid in a hanging basket
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 19:00

The Phalaenopsis will look great growing in baskets with their flowers hanging down, much more natural than staked upright. I don't stake any of my species ones, just let them grow naturally. David

From: Dennis Read
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Orchid in a hanging basket
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 20:00

You can definitly grow Phals on the side of a basket as well as many other orchids as in nature many orchids grow on the trunks of trees. In the NHOS there was a grower that grew her plants above the kitchen sink and her basket Vandas were magnificent.
Regards Dennis

From: John W Stanley
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Marble chipps.
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 00:35

Hi Geoff (and anyone else interested!)
Re; limestones, marbles and karst;
I never did get around to expanding on karst after your China trip a day or
two ago (!) or was it a week or so back?
The nearest we have to the kind of limestone you saw in China is the
Carboniferous Limestone of the Mendips, South Wales or Derbyshire.
It is a pretty dense non-porous limestone unlike that of your experience
near Box Hill which is both porous and permiable.
Generally, cave systems or solution fissures related to karst terrain tend
to be in limestones which are fissured (down which water permeates) but
which have slow dissolving non-porous rock between (hence the apparent
contradiction between permeable and porous − they are different)

I have not been fortunate enought o see orchids growing on limestone but the
phtos I've seen show a greyish and quite dense-looking rock which I'd guess
to be non porous. I suspect that the roots of an orchid dissolve the rock in
contact. I wonder if locations where orchids have died off have a 'track'
or solution pattern of their roots which might have dissolved grooves in the
limestone (you'll have to hgo back and check Geoff) As you say, all plants
need elements such as Ca and Mg or Fe but these are normally in

From: geoff hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Orchid in a hanging basket
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 10:00

Of course, if you want them really natural, you will tie them to the
underside of a branch. That's how some of the species grow in the mangrove
swamps of one Phillipines island ; and I have seen them being grown
similarly in an orchid nursery at Butterworth − which could be Malaysia or
Thailand − I just forget which holiday that was. But they are hardly
convenient to put on the dining table if you do that !

From: Roger Grier
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Hanging orchids.
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 10:05

Welcome to the 'Club', I am sure that you will be amazed and delighted with the information that comes along.

As Peter has said and shown, his Phalaenopsis do so well in a slatted wooden [now often, plastic] baskets.

One question that I have for Peter is this: are the 'white' objects in the basket pieces of polystyrene???

I will wait for your answer Peter before I say anything else, that may interest our Members.

From: geoff hands
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: [OrchidTalk] Marble chipps.
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 10:20

Karst − if you have not seen Karst mountains/hills you would surely find
them amazing . Not easy to climb − a hands and knees job , and don't be too
squeamish about the snakes, spiders, and invertebrates generally. !.

Maybe not always like this perhaps , but I have sen Averyanov lecturing on
slipper orchids of Vietname, and also Phillip Cribb on orchid journeys in
South West China, and they both showed similar scenes.

p.s. I saw P.bellatulum in north Thailand , where the mountains are more
like the Malverns, but that trip was my last using film, and I never
digitised the images so can't show you.

From: Tricia Garner
To: Orchid Talk List
Subject: Re: Orchid in a hanging basket
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 18:45

Hello Georgina, and welcome to the group. I'm sure Phalaenopsis would
do very well in hanging baskets. Do you have any particular kind of
basket in mind, and how are you planning to site it/them? It could
make a difference!